'If an idea does not scare me, I will not do it'

Thinking of performance art, an image conjures in the head of an artist putting together a performance, based on the principles of fine art, that is meant to engage with an audience. Over the past four decades, Marina Abramovic has taken the genre way beyond textbook definitions to create a body of work that is edgy and thought-provoking.
Sample this: in her 1974 work Rhythm 0, Marina stood in front of an audience motionless, and presented them with 72 objects - from roses, bread and beverages to a scalpel, blades and a loaded gun - asking them to do anything they wanted, with a note claiming she took full responsibility. Following a few gentle responses at first, some members of the audience soon began to scratch her skin with the blades, while another used her hand to point the gun to her head. In 1980, she collaborated with her then partner Ulay for a performance in which they stood motionless on opposite sides of a drawn bow and arrow, with the latter pointed at Marina's heart.
Challenging prescribed mores, Marina's art is about endurance, in its fiercest form, so that her audience can be exposed to uneasy moments that mirror their own struggles with life and society. While critics may be divided on the extent to which performance art should push the boundaries of safety, most agree that the Yugoslavia-born performance artist's robust body of work has created a language of its own - a reason why Marina is known today as the grandmother of performance arts. In a conversation with WKND, Marina, 70, talks about the strengths, and vulnerabilities, that inform her work as one of the world's leading contemporary artists.
 
You are well-known as the grandmother of performance arts. How has this endurance built over the years?
Firstly, let's just drop this term 'grandmother'. They called me the grandmother 20 years ago, and they still call me that, though I really am a grandmother's age now (laughs). You can use warrior, perhaps soldier, but not grandmother. You know, people think that when you grow older, you lose energy. But you also learn more about the situation; your willpower increases. I have more willpower now than I did when I was 20. Because at 20, I didn't know all the techniques that I do now.
 
You have a robust body of work. Yet, Rhythm 0 continues to be one of your most talked-about performances. What was the most important learning point for you?
That performance was important because it helped me understand the limits of the public. By the time it got over, I realised that my audience could even kill me. Give them tools, and they can do the worst. But later, during The Artist is Present [the 2010 performance had Marina sitting silent and looking straight into the eyes of every stranger who sat opposite her], I realised that the same audience can also show you their best. Many of them broke down in tears. You really have to open yourself up to understand your audiences.

You have often put your life in danger for your performances. One of the criticisms against performance art is that it can border on the dangerous. What is your view on that?
I don't care about criticism. I do care about young artists, who have to go through a very difficult path to make a mark. I tell them, follow your intuition and follow your heart and don't give a damn about criticism. If I were to take criticism seriously, I wouldn't step out of my house. I was criticised in the '70s, '80s, '90s... Now, I am 70 years old and I am still criticised. When Beethoven composed Symphony No. 5, critics at the time said it was the worst piece of music ever made. When the Eiffel Tower was first built, critics at the time said it was the worst building constructed and would ruin the beauty of Paris. Today, it's the symbol of Paris. So, you have to have your vision. Sometimes the vision works, sometimes it doesn't. I don't care what people say - I have to be true to myself.

What has been your most challenging performance to date? Also, what sort of preparation do you undergo prior to a performance?
Definitely The Artist is Present. If you do a performance for three hours, one day or three days, it is challenging. But when you do something for three months, it becomes your life. Every day is the last day. Every day you ask yourself, 'Can I really do it?' It was painful to sit for 8-10 hours each day. Every part of my body ached but I couldn't even massage the area.
As far as preparation goes, I think it's important to be vegetarian, as the body needs a lot of energy to digest meat. I do a lot of physical exercise. I also go into isolation because people, as wonderful as they are, consume your energy.
 
As you age, are you discovering any physical vulnerabilities?
Of course. Every time I stand naked in front of the mirror, I look at my underarms; they are saggy. I look at my belly, which is protruding. My legs are too fat. I have to lose weight. I think ageing is cruel. But in front of the public, I don't care about showing my ageing body. It's not me, it's my work being shown through my body. You have to accept ageing because it cannot be reversed.
 
You started out in the '60s and '70s, when political activism was at its peak. Do you think that general passivity has seeped into everyday life today?
I hate to have this nostalgia about my generation. I live each day as if it's the last and I don't have time for melancholia. I just like to see what is there now. I want to create two avatars - one is going to be me in half age, one is going to be very old, and they are going to meet in the future (laughs). I am interested in the future - how will the planet survive global warming? Will there be life in another planet? Can art make life better? To me, the future is so much more interesting than the past.
 
Marketing and PR have assumed greater importance in the art world. Does this shift come easily to you?
If you read the diaries of Leonardo da Vinci, or any of the great painters of that time, there are mainly complaints to kings, to popes, to aristocrats about why they did not pay them. Before it was aristocracy and royalty; today, it's rich business people. What I don't like is how art has become a commodity. Like that one piece of art that costs $200 million, which no one but the rich can afford. Or the art that is at someone's house that no one else can see. Art as a commodity becomes an obstacle to seeing the actual value of the skill. In my case, things have been different. You cannot buy performance art, because then you have to buy me. And I am not for sale. Very few artists survive each century. The ones who survive do so because of their ideas, not marketing.
 
You've often said anything pleasant does not interest you. Does performance art necessarily have to be about suffering?
Pleasant is too easy. Performance art is a living form of art. You have to capture the audience's attention. And you have to put them in an uncomfortable position in order to create a dialogue. You could say it is an energy dialogue. This energy dialogue can be through suffering, because happiness doesn't change people. People change when they have terminal diseases, when there are accidents, when they lose someone close to them. So when you exhibit difficult situations in front of the public - and I go through these situations myself - there is a realisation they are forced to confront. I create these concepts, but my energy is drawn from the public. Humanity started with the fear of death and pain. In every art, you can see suffering in some form.
 
When have you come closest to feeling fear during a performance?
When I get an idea, if I am not afraid of it, I will not do it. I need to think in my mind, 'Oh jeez, I am really going to do this.' I am terribly afraid till the moment I go into the performance. But once I am in front of the public, I don't think about it anymore. I block my fears because I think whatever is going to happen will happen. I cannot change my destiny.  
 
You have collaborated with Lady Gaga in the past. How was that experience?
I find her to be a true artist. She is very talented and an incredibly strong woman. She was my student at the Marina Abramovic Institute - and one of the brightest. She is growing up to be a great performer. What I like about her is that she is also not afraid to talk about her problems.
You see, it's challenging for a woman who has seen success to be in a balanced relationship. This is a major problem for us, because most men do not want you to succeed. They want to have you in their control. I am not a feminist because I believe women are so much more powerful than men anyway. We don't have to prove ourselves to be feminist. We can create human beings. This is a power no one can take from us. We are strong - we just love to play fragile to please men.

You speak so much for women's empowerment and yet you say you're not a feminist...
Because freedom can mean different things to different people. I was a tourist in India and had people run after me to sell something. I saw a burqa shop and asked them to make one for me. The shopkeeper said it would take three hours. I sat in the shop and drank tea. In three hours, my burqa was ready. I went out wearing the full burqa. I could go anywhere in the world; I was free. Wearing a burqa can give you a sense of freedom; it's something that not many Western women will fully understand. Except that when I went to the hotel in my burqa, nobody would give me the key. I had to take the veil off and say, "It's me." (Laughs)
 
You have said that you face more criticism from women of your generation than from men.
I feel more jealousy from women now than ever before. I represent a kind of freedom that they have not been able to enjoy. If my relationship does not work, I leave. I have freedom to choose; I don't want to suffer. I want to be creative. Those women sacrifice things for family. I haven't done any such thing.  They should be happy for me - I should be an example to them.
 
You wear a lot of black. Does it signify anything?
I have a very dramatic face, so black accentuates that. I never had money in my life. But now, in the last 10 years, I have seen success. During this period, I have not had to buy clothes, as everything was given to me. When you go to red carpet events, you cannot be photographed twice in the same clothes. So I get a lot of them from Givenchy. That was another criticism from my generation: 'Oh, she's sold out.' Sold out? Why? Because I love fashion and I like to look good? I also eat a lot of chocolate, a lot of butter, gain weight, then go on diets, and watch bad movies. And then I cut everything out and do a very hardcore performance. So, people can never put me in a box.
 
At the recently held Tribeca Film Festival, you joked with The Revenant director Alejandro Inarritu about casting you in his next film. Are we seeing you in one?
Oh my God. Alejandro was asked with whom he would like to speak at the festival. Everyone thought it would be a film critic. But he said it would be me. It was a big deal, because he is the king of cinema right now. I told him: in your next film, if there is a murder scene, I just want to be in a scene where I am cleaning the blood. Alejandro said, 'Okay, you've got the role.' He sent me an email saying, 'Marina, you are in my next movie. If you are not, I will put 30 seconds of blank screen that would read Marina Abramovic promised to clean the floor' (laughs). They call him king of pain; some articles call me queen of pain. We often joke if we should torture ourselves!
anamika@khaleejtimes.com